research for fix for inaccurate guages, false low voltage, false overheat, etc

[wakejunky]

two winters ago i tore into my boat wanting to finally fix my gauges/alarm issues. i found at the time what i believed to be the problem and made a repair. unfortunately i haven't had enough time on the water until now to know any results. So far everything looks great Ive had about 20 hrs on it this year and the gauges are working very well, the only alarm Ive had was for low fuel and sure enough i was low. Ive mentioned it before , but now i KNOW its due to the CAN (controller area network) operating system. it was a very early design before they learned some important lessons about electrical interference. the data wire is not shielded properly. to make matters worse we were instructed and most of us I'm guessing added additional power and grounds to the DECC. the ground wire is fine  but its not being used properly and the 12v positive is only making problems worse. that 10g or larger wire creates an even larger electrical interference. the fix is to isolate or shield the data wire. two ways to fix it, isolate the data wire - very difficult but that's what i did and it worked, or shield it by using twisted pair theory and possibly adding a ground wire to the twisted pair. This is what the auto manufacturer's did to fix the problem. now its common practice. part of my repair was to move my MMDC from the starboard rear seat back just in front of the vdrive locker up under the dash. ( i eliminated almost 12 feet of excessive wiring doing that alone) only down fall i can think of is if you don't have perfect pass and rely on the stock speedo you would have to lengthen the hose and i don't know if it will effect the accuracy of the speedo. one big benefit was if you have perfect pass it will eliminate the water possibly damaging the MMDC that is very common on Malibu's and i would guess will become an issue for us at some time.
 anyways i think we can just make a twisted pair grounded harness replacement to fix the problem. I'm just curious where the MDC and MMDC is located on everyone's boats to figure out length and layout of each model. and we can just make them accordingly. i used to have a 1999 e22 but cant for the life of me remember where it was. so i need as much input as possible to figure out all the different models. please post your year, model, and location and hopefully we can get this fixed for everyone

oh yeah i need to know if you have Early style or late (millennium) gauges

[masonlk]

Great job Wakejunky. I've got a 2000 E22 with Millenium dash. MMDC is mounted on the forward facing wall under the dash. I'm also eliminating the pitot tubes for the speedo and going with the GPS version Wet-n-Frugal has available.

[brad]

This would be awesome.  Typically everything works fine for me (best I can tell as a novice) except when I turn on the nav lights, then the blinking dash begins.

2002 SX, Springville, Utah

[skibeau]

Wakejunky, I sure am glad you're here!  High props on figuring out the problem.  It sounds real good.  I've got a '99 E22 with the MMDC under the dash on the driver's side of the wall (port, upper corner of the wall).  I did the 8-gauge wire upgrade, but the gauges read higher when more power is running through the system (gauges, blower, bilge, lights, Q-beam, etc.)  The MMDC and all gauges were replaced a couple years ago.  Boat's in Columbia, SC.  How can I help?

[wakejunky]

i was really hoping to find some folks in my area, Taft/Bakersfield CA, or near me that wouldn't mind being guinea pigs for this as i would like to do the install myself to see the results. But epics are not so popular in central CA. is there anybody out there with the skills to replace wires in harnesses. not splicing or soldering but pulling the individual pins out of the connectors and installing a complete new wire. its not hard but experience is preferred. i need some logging of before and after testing results and a fair amount of communication. at least one person with a old style dash and it would be nice to get a e22 or x22 or e21 new style dash (millennium gauges). if your having alot of trouble with your message center and gauges would be a big plus. if your not results may obviously not be noticeable. if you dont have experience and you don't mind sending me your harnesses we can do that to. i understand its not the best season to have your boat down.

also just want to do a poll and see if people just want this to be a how to and have the basic skills to do this yourselves or something we would have to do on an exchange basis.

please post your opinions

[Water Sports]

99E22,99X22,00X22--all old dash
01X22--new dash
All are under driver dash on back of bow seat--also changed speedo.
Would love to give it a shot after the season(Labor Day),  plus not alot of expierence in changing wire harnesses, just can't afford to make a mistake.
THANK YOU

[masonlk]

I would either give it a shot or take the instructions to one of the marine electric shops in the Seattle area to do it for me. If I try it pictures would be a huge help. I also wouldn't do it until the end of summer. Next time I get out to the lake I will take some pictures under the dash for you.

[toyotafreak]

I spent years doing cable and connector repair before moving to the dark side (sales). Special insertion/removal tools required for the contacts? What kind of contacts and crimpers required? How many total wire segments? The only thing I have to complain about is the LVA, which has a knack for going off (and taking away the depth finder) when we're headed into shallows. Wonder if maybe just a few of the wires could be replaced? I'd be really interested to see what you've come up with. Also, what other than the LVA are you struggling with?

[wakejunky]

toyotafreak- sounds like you might be a good guinea pig. Toyota used Packard weather pack connectors. tools needed will be Packard crimpers that will do weather pack and a pin removal tool. as far as total segments ? that all depends on your layout. the big issue is if your mdc or mmdc is not under the dash and you don't want to move it. your really in for alot of wire replacement. i choose to move mine and was able to remove 12 feet of wasted harness ( all plug and play no splicing ) and i think it better protected from the elements there. i think its going to depend on issues people are having and if they want to break it down or just do a blanket repair that will cover all possibilities of EMI. the early model dash is different and they don't have a message center. maybe easier but not sure i don't have one to see how the basic system is laid out. all in all the early models repair will be easier because the message center requires 2 data wires to be shielded. where the gauges only need 1. so late models will need 3 wires replaced. and i don't physically mean 3 wires. the system just has 3 different data wires that run though out the system and all will need to be shielded so segments could add up.

i personally had overheat, oil pressure and occasionally voltage issues. 9 times out of 10 its when i was running a lot of accessories both factory and add on like my ballast system. it had 5 rule pumps and draining at the end of the day and would spike the EMI. after just isolating my wires i have none, but i will be going back in and properly shielding the data wires

take a look at the mesages center install document and you can see the data wires., yellowfor gauges and orange and green for message center

[denver]

I could help with this as well.... I used to build wiring harness for racecars when I was in college.  I have contant problems with gauges......  I have already gone into the harness several times on my epic and removed a bunch of junk wires as well so I am familiar where the all go. 

I have a very late SX, 01/02SX.

[toyotafreak]

Sounds like Denver's good too.

Mine's a '00 S22, with everything at the helm. Haven't been under there for a while, so don't remember how much excess harness there may or may not be. I'd be interested in trying. Not looking to buy more tools, but may have some stuff at work I can borrow... Where did you buy your crimpers and approx how much $$?

First, most important things for me are to get the timing belts and water pump replaced, get a decent head unit and small amp for the four in-boat 6.5's (no second battery). However, fixing the LVA would be cheap and wonderful. It would be helpful if you could identify which of the signal types need to be shielded, and how you suggest shielding them. Shielded/twisted pair, coax, etc.?

Such a great boat. Not sure what that guy's experience was that says the happiest days of a boat owner are the buy/sell days. I don't ever want to get rid of this sweet ride.

BTW, is Buenavista still real hard to get into for the grass/waterfront?

[wakejunky]

Skibeau, Watersports - curious what issues your having with gauges or alarms? id appreciate your input given you have the early dash.

Denver- PM sent

Masonlk - id appreciate any and all pics, send to my email id like to have the best resolution possible. ( when posting here it really kills the resolution)

Toyotafreak- if you want grass waterfront you MUST make reservations early.

everybody- pics and input is greatly appreciated. although this isnt at the level to post a how to or details just yet, this like the title states is research and id like all info i can get. id like this fix to work for everybody not just a few.

[skibeau]

Wakejunky - No apparent issues with 7 gauges since everything was replaced, everything still working.  Get alarm chirps when oil pressure gauge eratically bounces very near low (especially in gear, no throttle and engine hot).  Better since going back to recommended oil weight (0W is too thin - more frequent low oil pressure alarms) and going back to original size oil filter (oversized filter had insufficient resistance even with small particle filtration).  The coolant gauge reads 5-10 degrees higher when the blower is on (~170 degrees).  Seems like we got a couple of alarms due to high coolant temperature 4th of July camping trip 2010. New impeller seemed to fix. I don't recall seeing the check engine light illuminated, though the sun shining into it makes it appear illuminated at times.  I'll try to be more observant when cranking next time. I'll also try to get a picture under the dash next time we go out if you like.

[Water Sports]

On the old dash,  erratic oil pressure and voltage, temp stays accurate.  We have removed power to most accessories -pumps, amps, push button start--most seemed to be tagged on to the factory wiring.  The new dash was a complete replacement-mdc,message center and circuit board all was bad(hope the names are correct).  Still have all old parts.  Bought all boats used so tried to go back to the basic original wiring.  Your work will make a great improvement to value of these boats-tough to sell a boat when the gauges are inaccurate-THANKS

[tryme]

i ran the ground also and fixed most of my issues but changing the oil sender unit fixed any issues with the oil pressure.  may not be related but an easy fix